Retribution Paladins and Haste is current as of Patch 4.0.6, Patch 4.1 and Cataclysm.
Alright everyone, let’s take a look at Haste and see how it affects Retribution Paladins. I know many of you are scrambling to try and understand the mechanics of this and how it affects our cooldowns and DPS as of Patch 4.0.6.
Here is what Haste basically does:
- Increases how often our weapon swings by reducing the weapon speed.
- Speeds up our DoTs, including Seal of Truth (Censure), making the damage tick faster.
- Lowers our cooldowns on attacks and abilities, allowing for more attacks, which equals more damage.
Haste and Crusader Strike
The chaos about Haste in the aftermath of Patch 4.0.6 derives from how it affects Crusader Strike, and the ability to get mopre Templar’s Verdicts. To put this in the simplest terms, Crusader Strike is the heart of our damaging attacks, as it is the best source for generating Holy Power (100% chance). Templar’s Verdict is our strongest damaging attack, and it costs Holy Power to use. In order to maximize DPS, Templar’s Verdict should only be used when we have 3 stacks of Holy Power.
So, basically, Ret Paladins want as many Crusader Strikes to hit as quickly as possible, allowing for more Templar’s Verdict uses.
- quicker Crusader Strikes = more Crusader Strikes = more Templar’s Verdicts = Higher DPS
HOWEVER, with Patch 4.0.6 and the way our other abilities and attacks function, haste does not provide the value that Mastery and Critical Strike does. The logic above would hold true if we were able to get Crusader Strike down to a 3 second cooldown. But even in end-Cataclysm gear, the amount of Haste needed probably still will not be reached. Simply put, no matter how much Haste you stack, you won’t be able to get Crusader Strike down to its optimal 3 second cooldown.
I have written a quick post on why Haste is our lowest priority stat, trying to simplify the reasoning as much as possible:
Haste Summary
So, for the TLDR version of this post:
- Current stat values are: Str > Hit > Exp > Mastery > Crit > Haste
- Reforge away from Haste to your most needed stat, wherever possible.
- Do not gem haste.
Note: As always, when patches get released and content changes, there’s always a possibilty stat values could change. Mechanics for our class seem to morph every patch or two, so check back often to see if Haste has gained or dropped further in priority!
Hey Khor, you have been outstanding in getting information out as quickly as possible. Thanks for that. And thanks to the other posters for your help as well. For as much as I have been playing this wonderful game, I am still a noob (I feel). So here is a noobish question regarding Latency: Where can you view your latency number?
Hover your mouse over the main menu button (in the minibar, looks like a computer screen. You should see latency and framerate.)
This number will change sometimes if you share a connection, have dodgy wireless, or sometimes even by time of day, but it should be generally consistent.
@ Rewop – /fixed 🙂
ok I understand every here, well except for 1 thing… Why the lower your latency the higher haste you need? If my latency is 0 wouldn’t that be the best connection so I would think I would need less haste? Im sure I am wrong but dont know why ha
Damn this is a full service site! Nice picture.
I just brought my DPS up about 200 buy pulling one piece of gear’s worth of Expertise and reforging into haste, and changing one enchant (bracers from expertise to +6 stats.) I’m right about back where I was damage-wise prepatch on average, but the spike and ramping up is still very different of course.
I’ve got all my auras clustered by my toon and it makes a big Cha-Ching sound when I get 3HP.
Seems to be working OK. Not used to it yet but a least I don’t feel crippled. Huge thanks to you for helping me sort out my stats!
Wouldn’t you need more haste rating as your latency went up to compensate for the delay? According to your chart, if I have zero latency so is no delay between the time I hit my keyboard button and my swing occuring, I need 1013 haste. But if I have 300 ms latency so there is a delay between the time I hit the button and the swing occurs, I need less haste at 303 to cap. The logic doesn’t add up so I must be missing something…..
Absolutely a great web site by the way. You do an awesome job and thanks for all the info!!
Galahad
Kirin Tor
Its important to remember to use your average latency inside whatever raid instance you’r typically running and not sitting in Dalaran.
@Galahad
The latency doesn’t occur between you activating an ability and your character performing it, it occurs between your computer and the server. So the time “lost” between your computer and the server shortens your effective GCD. Also, no ammount of haste will shorten your latency. This is a relationship where the higher your latency the less potential DPS you will be able to produce.
Thanks for the reply Fulgora! 🙂 Although, I am still confused. lol Sometimes I get a block and what is so simple to others just does not get through my thick skull!
It still looks like –
Slower = more latency = less haste to cap
Faster = less latency = more haste to cap
Anytime you learn something through self-study, there is likely to be gaps in your knowledge. This is one of my gaps and I’ll bet it’s something simple that is general knowledge but slipped past me.
Meh….I’ll study on it. 🙂
Galahad
Kirin Tor
There aren’t any raid buffs that affect haste anymore that we don’t already have in this equation right?
Ok, correct me if I’m wrong.. my usual latency would be around 300-400, so according to the list above i would need 300 haste to be haste capped?
However, my haste rating is now 848 and my Crusader Strike cd is at 3.3 secs with the JotP buff? does this mean all the extra haste is wasted? And I should reforge for crit?
Still trying to download the damn patch :/ Goes up like 2mb every HOUR, Anything i can do to speed it up?
I don’t get the haste latency thing because the latency changes… Well at least mine does.
Yeah Akiliez, that’s the frustrating part. Mine can fluctuate form 150ms to 300ms. Usually it hovers around 200 ms on average, though.
So I did some research for us because I think the latency thing is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of in this game. Luckly, for now at least, it is not live in patch 4.0.1. Heard is the post followed by a link to it. Hope it helps…
Haste and the Soft Cap
Currently the full latency fix is not live in 4.0.1. The BC designed spellqueue still exists.
The ultimate nirvana of Crusader Strike is to reduce the GCD to 3 seconds. This permits you to use CS, a single filler, then another CS with no wasted time.
In a perfect world it takes around 1015 Haste (with Wrath of Air and JotP) to reduce CS to a 3 second CD. However, with latency a factor, on live the best you can do is cast CS, wait for GCD, press an ability, wait for latency, new GCD begins. This means the minimum time between two CS is your CS cooldown + twice your latency (possibly CS CD + latency – you may have to be off CS CD fully before your next keypress, so you’d want the CD to complete before the 2nd latency occurs at keypress). At 100ms latency you would only need around 750 (or 880) haste. 200ms and you need 510 (or 750). These are L80 values.
This value is your Soft Cap. Beyond this point haste is unable to accelerate your CS usage (but still increases Autoattacks). At Level 80, up to this soft cap it appears that Haste is superior to Crit. Beyond your soft cap the value of Haste drops below Crit.
Note: Spells have a special rule with the GCD. The spell GCD is reduced by haste (to a minimum of 1 second). If you manage to acquire 1015 Haste your spell GCD becomes 1 second. Thus even with zero latency you would have: CS, Exo, 0.5 seconds empty time, CS. Remember that Exo, HW, Cons, and DP are spells. Judge, TV, DS, and HoW are not and use the full 1.5 GCD every time.
Second Note: Latency displayed in-game is an average. You could be lower than this value the majority of the time with intermittent spikes producing a higher average. Thus your CS would not be soft capped the majority of the time, then beyond your soft cap when that odd lag spike occurs.
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106276-retribution_concordance_4_0_1_a/
Don’t know why I typed heard up there, lol. Here*
Uh.. can anyone help me out with my question here? =(
@ Herial – Yes, you have extra Haste. You probably cannot reforge to crit since all our gear already has crit on it. You can make sure you have both hit and expertise caps, and if so, then Mastery is your last remaining option.
what is the haste cap?
ok… there´s one thing i don´t get… if i should try to get down the CD on crusader strike to 3 sec… but you say that with 200ms latency i should have 514 haste. i have 690 haste and my CD is at 3.74 sec so wich is it should i get down the cd to 3 sec or should i get 514 haste? O.O 😀
I’m in the same predicament as Neifer… At 200ms my haste soft cap should be 514, as stated above. But, as with Neifer, my current latency is 200ms plus my haste is at 815, but my cooldown for CS is 3.5 or so. What am I not understanding? If I dropped my haste to 514, my cooldown would be ALOT longer than 3 sec. Please help me, Neifer, and the rest of us rets experiencing this predicament understand…Thanks.
I’m sorry, but along with many of the other posters on here, the latency effect on haste just isn’t making sense. And not only is it not making sense, but it just isn’t playing out as stated in-game. Now I know that the tooltip obviously is going to reflect the cooldown as if you had 0 latency. But OmniCC and actual verbal counting are showing that my Crusader Strike is no where near a 3 second cooldown yet. I average about 135ms idle usually (depends on time of day and how many people are around me, and I’m going with about 200ms in combat. For my actual test, I’m at just over 200ms in Ironforge on the dummy. According to the formula I should have 514 haste in order to haste cap at this latency. I am actually sitting at around 640 haste (started pulling haste off my gear in order to get back down to the suggested haste cap) and yet the CD on my Crusader Strike is still at almost 4 seconds via stopwatch. So something here isn’t adding up right.
After reading over the EJ post about it, I’m beginning to think that what is trying to be said is that if you have latency then you CANNOT actually hit the haste cap. The soft cap is the number you get from the formula, and that number is saying that due to your latency, you should not get more haste than that because that haste will be wasted in latency. I like other people read this post originally as the people with a higher latency have an advantage in that they can get to the haste cap easier, but what it is really saying is that only people with a perfect 0 latency will be able to see an actual 3 second crusader strike CD. For everyone else, if you have a 100ms latency, you might have the tooltip showing your CD to be 3 seconds, but in actuality the latency will slow down the point at which your cooldowns actually trigger so you will really have a CD higher than the tooltip reflects. Hopefully this clears it up for people that were as confused as I was.
I’m finding that Mastery is more important than crit in that TV is formulated on Holy Power and strength/attack power. What Mastery is doing for me is helping to proc Hand of Light thus enabling me to build 3 stacks for another hit of TV. I heard some players are waiting for the CD on zealotry to use their 3 Holy powers but for me in between im proccing Hand of Light.
Khor i am honestly lost on this Latency thing…isn’t more logical to get the highest Haste as possible so you can have the highest attack speed ? Why have lower haste, the more latency you have.
Today I tried a few trinket combos.
I have DW, WFS, and HWT.
After reforging and re-gemming, my haste is about 600 and I need to be at 700 with my latency. So to make up for the remaining haste I’d tried HWT trinket. But after going through all of the trinket combos on a dummy, DW and WFS came out on top despite having less haste. I did about 8k-8.3k dps. The peak was at 8.4k. Anyone else have tried?
So everyone raid while you’re downloading massive files and make your latency crap so you can stack other stats!
Hey Im sitting at 549 haste with avg latency of around 200 and im at 3.87secs on cs, your site is awesome for rets btw ty for taking the time and effort to do this lemme know if there is anything else i can do to reduce cd of cs. ty GOD bless
I was very confused too about the haste cap thing and it seemed strange to me that I have to put less “effort” in reaching soft cap with a higher latency. I`ll give you a simple example which helped me:
Lets say you have 100ms latency and haste soft capped at 1015. This means your CS will have raid buffed a 3sec CD. Now lets see what happens between hitting 2 CS`s:
1. You hit first CS: 100ms(latency)+1500ms(global cooldown)
2. You hit a filler(non spell): 100ms(latency)+1500ms(global cooldown)
3. You hit 2nd CS.
In total you have 3200ms (3.2 sec) between 2 consecutive CS.
Basically, no matter how much haste you have, if your latency is 100ms, you can`t hit 2 consecutive CS`s faster then 3.2 seconds, so the haste invested in getting from 3.2s cooldown to 3.0s is lost. The CS cooldown can be ready, but you still have to wait for the GCD.
Ofc this can change when you hit a spell filler, since the haste cap also lowers your GCD for spells close to 1 sec.
The fact that with higher latency the soft cap is lower doesnt mean we still gonna hit CS every 3secs, its gonna be more then 3, so dps is hurt anyway, thats why we should compensate this loss by turning extra haste to a stat (crit or mastery) that can provide more after we reach the cap.
My english is not perfect, I hope I made myself clear and helpfull
So we reforge haste to the softcap or much as going?
I did testing on a dummy last night for 10 minutes and I noticed that my latency was screaming at me 400 ms, now, I tested with 720 haste rating, I could CS, filler, and have about .5secs before CS COULD be used again. My CS CD was 3.4-3.3 secs during the test, so it could be my latency gauge is lying?
When i reforge i can only sacrifice crit strike for haste. Can someone please just give a straight yes or no answer as to if i should do this to reach the haste cap.
Great site, great info. Propts to you Khor and those of you posting helpfull information.
I have a bit of a dilemma here. When I’m raiding I’m usually averaging about 12k dps on bosses with my highest dps at 13.7k dps on festergut. First of all, how the heck are some of you getting 20k on ANY boss. Secondly… I cant seem to hit more than 6k on a dummy. so I don’t understand how I can do 100% more dmg on a raid boss, and furthermore I can’t grasp how some of you can be doing close to 10k on a dummy.
My dps is looking decent right now, but I’m always looking for ways to imrove it. I’m always 2nd on the dmg meters with a boomkin doing 3-4k more dps than me.
Im sitting at 450 haste with a 3.5 second CS raid buffed. I’ve dropped all my other excess stats into mastery sitting at 385 (16.8%) I can usually get a mastery proc about once every 10 seconds which is really nice, but would I benefit THAT much more from getting rid of all that mastery rating and putting it into something else?
Well I actually have like 400-500 ms Latency as I play from Australia and am constantly sharing my internet connection.
The author is completely wrong about the relationship between latency and Haste rating, especially when instant queuing is now an official feature.
The game was not designed around Latency. Just because you live overseas should not change stat values/ratings for a class.
With queueing, I should be able to use the standard CS>Filler>CS with 1000 Haste rating without losing DPS because I ‘stacked too much haste for my latency’.
There are too many misconceptions surrounding this matter already. It almost looks like people think latency reduces the cooldown of Crusader Strike in place of Haste and therefore have an advantage if they have high ping. This is a completely stupid idea that started spreading around and I’m glad to have found the source.
READ THIS FOR CLARIFICATION:
The message the author is trying to convey is that latency limits the number of GCDs you can execute within a certain time frame. At the moment melee GCDs are 1.5 and these include TV, CS and Judgement. Spell GCDs including Holy Wrath and Exorcism SCALE with Haste to a minimum of 1 second GCD unlike Melee GCDs. Supposedly, latency adds to the end of the previous GCD and the beginning of the next GCD as latency is the amount of time a command takes to reach the server and back. Therefore 100 ms latency will equate to .1 second delay in reaching the server and back, which is multiplied by 2 as the first delay is from the server telling your client that the cooldown for CS has ended. You then execute the next command which takes .1 second to reach the server and your CS is executed in-game.
However the above is assuming that there are no mechanics implemented in-game to counter this, which in the author’s mind disadvantages classes with higher latency and therefore must remove haste as it is conjecturally ‘useless’, and move it into another stat. This also in no way ‘disadvantages’ people with better ping and better location, as they are actually getting more benefit from Haste as it scales in rating better than crit and mastery until it’s maxed.
Unfortunately, the author had overlooked the fact that Blizzard had in fact implemented an early version of the Spell Queuing feature which more or less reduced the disadvantage people got from higher pings. The spell queue works on the client instead of having to communicate with the server. It’s like ‘buffering time’. Obviously the first command the high ping player sends to the server suffers from lag, but commands thereafter do not have to wait for the cooldown of the previous spell to end before ‘buffering’ the command. This is evident when you press say CS then Judgement about halfway through the GCD (seems to be the mininum trigger point), the Judgement icon is highlighted. About 1 second later, Judgement is used but the GCD (not Judgement cooldown) is already halfway done. At this point you can press CS again and it will activate in less than a second. At the moment this feature only works with GCD, but will work with actual cooldown skills in Cataclysm and will also have improved features such as a slider bar to increase/decrease trigger point for people with varying levels of latency.
IN SHORT
Latency no longer plays a role in a GCD based rotation. Even with 1000 ping I will still be using 1 CS 1 Judgement and another CS in 3 seconds.
THUS THIS ARTICLE IS DISPROVEN AND SHOULD BE DISREGARDED
STACK HASTE RATING UNTIL CAPPED AND PROCEED WITH STAT PRIORITIES REGARDLESS
I’m glad to put this out there, and I’m sure Khor will understand the need for public knowledge regarding this matter. Writing this has helped myself to better understand the issue, and for that I thank you, Khor.
@ Soulfer – That’s a great explanation. Several things to address about your comment.
FIRST – The information I provide here on RetributionPaladins.com is a constant effort to keep consistent with what you will find within other Ret sources, including Elitist Jerks and the WoW forums. I try to consolidate and bring in the very best information for you guys, and try to keep it as up to date as possible.
SECOND – We can all agree that the ultimate Haste cap for Crusader Strike is 1019. If we all had zero latency issues to worry about, this would be a number set in stone, similar to hit and expertise caps. Everyone would be shooting for this number.
THIRD – Your comment is the absolute first I have seen regarding your point of view. Everything else has suggested otherwise, and my understanding of latency is that it does play a part in regards to haste…indirectly.
Latency does not affect a cooldown…my explanations above were to try and extremely simplify an otherwise very confusing combat mechanic. Latency has zero factor on a cooldown itself in terms of game mechanics, meaning latency isn’t configured into a cooldown like Haste is. In terms of communicating with the WoW servers and a PC, it does have an effect on when we can initiate an attack, and how much lag we experience in combat.
FOURTH – The spellqueue system is from BC, and from my understanding, is exactly why Haste is functioning the way it currently does. I am under the impression the full latency fix is something that will help remedy this, and should be live with Cataclysm or Patch 4.1. I will do a much more in-depth analysis of this feature when it goes live…assuming it affects our gameplay and combat.
FIFTH – “Latency no longer plays a role in a GCD based rotation. Even with 1000 ping I will still be using 1 CS 1 Judgement and another CS in 3 seconds.”
Yes, this is true. Your rotation never changes, and queueing attacks should work in this regard. But that means you have to have an impeccable internal timer, because the WoW interface will be displaying delays with higher latency. The cooldowns will appear delayed, which means you will have to click or punch them without visual help from WoW.
I agree with you that the mechanic is there, but it necessitates extremely strong skill and anticipation to work as you are saying. I think you HAVE to factor in latency, and until the full latency fix goes live, we are stuck with the mechanics as they are.
SIXTH – For anyone who still struggles with Haste and everything about it, you can always aim for the 1019 cap. This will always give you the best result for Crusader Strike.
It didnt make much sense to me neither, but as i dont really delve into the mechanics of the game i cautiously took the advice, but still aimed for the soft cap just incase it was disproven. Although i must admit, the more haste ive been getting and along with better gear ive been noticing a DPS decrease, problem is im not sure if its Blizzard silent nerfing us, or the Haste stacking. My armory link can eb found below.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Doomhammer&cn=T%C3%A9mpest
If you lower you haste as you latency increases you are not helping. Latency is the time it take information to be sent and received from the WOW servers. Ignore that silly formula. Its flat out wrong. Latency affects you game but lowering you haste is going to make you dps worse.
in my experience as being one of the top 3 in DPS in 25 man ICC, Haste is a big factor more haste more DPS i am sitting at almost 900 haste and i do about 20-22k on a boss and about 10k in a 5 man. And Khor is right latency is a HUGE factor with your DPS!!! Thank you Khor for this site i tell any Ret pally that doesnt know about it:) Oh and mastery isnt big for Rets ATM go for haste!!!
@ Lex obviously you don’t understand this concept at all. The time it takes for the information to send takes up part of the GCD between 2 CS. Having latency means the wait time will be longer, taking up more of the time, meaning any haste over your personal cap is wasted because regardless of getting to 3sec’s, .2 seconds of that might be taken up by waiting on your latency.
I’m hoping more and more that Blizz finds a way to beat this soft cap out of necessity. Having haste affect CS via talents is cool, but I’d much rather see a 3 second CS that is unaffected by Haste. I’d even compromise and go with a 3.5 second CS.
You guys are going back and forth and changing as you go. Keep this simple. Haste should be at 1019 ideally? Should I sacrifice Crit for this? Is crit a viable stat now? Should we take mastery over crit, leavin it our most non diserable stat? Do we need crit? If so, at what % should we stack it? Do we need mastery right now? If so, how much and should we take it from crit?
str > hit> expertise> haste >crit > mastery
my crit is at 25%
my haste is about 900
my mastery is 8.50
hope this helps
I got 200 MS 800+ haste on my retribution paladin, but still my CS is not under or even at 3 sec.. so this theory i don’t fully understand.. though i have been reading a whole lot about it.
i average about 200-250ms which according to the calculations i should be around 400-515 soft cap for haste…yet when i set my haste to those numbers my CD on CS increases…to right at 4sec. When i changed my haste to its current # (865) my CD decreases to like 3.55 seconds so with JoP up i’m at a 3.11sec CD..which is almost where we wanna be…probaly gonna get a little more haste which should def. get it down to 3 seconds flat or even lower
it’s all trial and error really…i tried reforging three different ways and spent like a 1000g regemmin….i tried haste at recommended soft cap and it didnt work, tried the opposite and it worked..well it seems to have worked…atleast for now
Same here… I followed the formula for 200ms which reads my haste soft cap is 514ish… yet even with Jop my CS is right under 4 sec. Only until I jack my haste to 800+ does my CS cd get anything close to 3 sec. Why is this?
Ah, sorry guys…something I forgot to mention, which is pretty important…this is assuming full raid buffs (haste increases). I’ll make an amendment to my post.
Lol I actually made a hastadin in wolk for the lulz and now I won’t have to change a damn thing come cataclysm XD
I got my haste rating to 30% (985 haste rating) adn in 25 man i got my CS down to 3.03 sec i was able to use TV with zeal about 5-6 times i believe toppin the charts again woot!!
Hey Khor! I think haste cap has changed. I have something like 850 haste and CS is still on 3.91 sec. Before 12/7 I had less haste points (approximately 650) and cooldown was shorter thant that. Am I right?